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Throats and collars on streamers


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#1 hairwing

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 08:52 PM

Bouncing off another thread I'd like to hear some opinions about hackle on streamer patterns, no-hackle, throat hackle, full collar?
 
I tie the no-hackle style on some patterns because I've experienced a quick dash to the fly and an instant refusal by the fish, Zonkers and Woolly Buggers and some Rangely patterns fall into this category for me ; and have also had fish that were followers that were tormented by the undulating action of a hackle collar at pause after a strip and finally made a dash for the fly and bit. 
 
My current favorites are flies that have no hackle or throat or a full hackle that is separated and bent at the base of the wing giving a semi-circular view for the fish as it approaches from behind the fly.
 
I think one of the first flies from Maine..."roosters regret" had the right idea.
 
So what do you think, or does it matter to you?


#2 ted patlen

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 08:31 PM

i think i can talk a long time about this...

 

why they're on the flies...i'll try to be short (and this is my opinion)

to imitate gills, usually red or pectoral fins....and to give the illusion of a wide head area.  and as an offshoot from atlantic salmon patterns...

 

the roosters regret was such a beautifully simple idea...tie a feather off the back of a hook , "as a streamer..." and go fish...this HAD to be the first lure man-made lure using feathers (sorry insect lovers)

 

as for the fishes reactions to the flies...i don't think it has to do with a part of the fly but the over-all appearance...

 

we wil never know why a fish goes after a streamer/wet/dry/bass bug...and sometimes refuses them and sometimes doesn't...i've seen trout refuse naturals and bluefish become finicky ....so i don't think it has to do with just part of the fly   



#3 hairwing

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 11:57 PM

we wil never know why a fish goes after a streamer/wet/dry/bass bug...and sometimes refuses them and sometimes doesn't...i've seen trout refuse naturals and bluefish become finicky ....so i don't think it has to do with just part of the fly   
 
What we do know is that some flies work better than others and that is the intriguing question that has bugged me for lots of years. So with that in mind I tend to over examine the working of flies trying to solve the riddle. The fact that a fly looks good to me is important because I get some pleasure just gaping at them and the craftsmanship it took to dream it up and put the materials on a hook regardless  if the fly catches fish or not, on the other hand, when a fly attracts and catches fish again and again my thought is that there is a quality in the fly that makes it happen. What is it ?
 
I went "a-fishin' " on the internet and took a refresher from Bates's book on the "roosters regret" but sadly  I couldn't find a pic of the original fly to look at. I found plenty of fancy upgrades but none of the fly as it was conceived. A thought that always pops into my head is Lefty Kreh and his "Deceiver"...I picture him grabbing a hank of chicken feathers from the neck and his comment "I don't know what it is about the way you pull these feathers that makes the fly work so well but I find it the best way to get the splayed look that makes the fly attractive". His Deceiver is pretty close to roosters regret ?
 
Interesting comments in Bates about what Gordon had to say about the "bumblepuppy", he commented on the action of the hackle and the JC eyes and how they pulsed open and closed and thought that it had a characteristic that attracted fish. I noted that he did not mention that the JC was a representation of fish eyes.
 
u-tubing I watched some minnows in an aquarium and noticed that the minnows at rest had the pec fins moving and active. Myself I have noticed that the fly when given a tug and stopped has a wiggle in it's tail and if it has a collar the hackle continues to undulate at rest, which is why I like the idea of the collar. Some of my flies I accentuate this with a rather long feather as compared to most streamers that I see.
 
I also  bumped into your "Bonbright" on streamers 365..a fly that's been in my vocabulary forever but I have never tied one or fished a fly in the salt, but it looks like the fly has some "rooster's regret in it's DNA ?


#4 hairwing

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:29 AM

"Roosters Regret"......

 

I took a quick shot at the vise. Anybody know if it looks like the fly ?

 

002_zps5380b417.jpg



#5 ted patlen

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 03:57 PM

i dont think anyone can give a definitive answer towhat the original looked like.....i'm not certain , but i think the first regret was tied on a short shanked hook and had one or two feathers, most probably just one hackle feather tied off the end of the hook like a streamer...the long triangular shaped pennants that were regularly used on ships.

 

this rudimentary thinking had to come first and was , had to be very primitive.   i can see Roman soldier with a bait hook snelled to a length of horse hair taking a feather and whipping it to the hook....actually i think the streamer type lure began a piece of cloth or leather when some fisherman ran out of bait.   Thaddeus Norris wrote about catching stripers with strips of rag...

 

lefty takes about an 1" length of strung hackle and folds it so all the feathers either splay or stay closed, depending upon the silhouette he wants.   he does not match the feathers or has a definite number of hackles for the fly.  so in a vague sense yes to your question but because lefty uses bucktail as a collar , long enough and heavy enough to prevent wing foul, then he changed the regret look into a different creature.  



#6 joelst

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 05:20 PM

Hairwing, from what I have read, it looks close. Here is what I found: 

  • About 1905 Alonzo Stickney Bacon, of Boston, conceived the idea of utilizing the tail feathers of a barnyard cock as a lure for ouananicke." [land-locked salmon.]

     

  • "He tied some with long, white feathers to a fish hook and trailed it through the water of Grand Lake and Stream. The idea was to have a lure to take the place of a strip of port rind, cut in the shape of a minnow, which had been a favorite until the law prohibited fishing there, except with artificial flies.

     

  • Mr. Bacon called it the White Feather. Guides who followed the idea termed it the Cock-a-doodle-doo.
  • Ted, thank you for your usual 'fabulous'  info. When in doubt, check with Ted on streamers. He or Chris del Plato are the fonts of knowledge on the subject of the long flies.
  • Cheers, I love this stuff!

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#7 hairwing

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:31 PM

Joelst....that's ironic....we have all these classical feather wing streamers coming from the "Rooster's Regret", a fly it turns out was designed to imitate a pork rind, and his name was Bacon. sad.png, Somebody short circuited the normal idea of imitating the Real McCoy.....the baitfish !
 
Reminds me of a story.... Jim Poor, proprietor of a local top notch fly shop in Denver, Anglers All, was asked a question by an outdoor writer: 
 
"Jim, the Brassie fly....what exactly is it suppose to imitate ?"
 
Jim was perched on his stool behind the fly counter smokin' his Camel. He took a long drag and blew the smoke at the ceiling, looked at the reporter and quipped his answer real seriously like: ......."A Mepps Spinner".smile.png
 
.................................................................................................................................................................................................
 
General question, so who started putting a hackle collar on the streamer ? Anyone got an idea.


#8 geraldsherbrook

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 12:13 PM

Dear HAIRWING,

 

psttttttttttt it's not for reasons I like my 'flies' a bit fuller ...that I can't follow YOU ...or doesn't wanted to come 'in' with some words and a reply !!!

 

A hugly appreciated topic...wich I followed INTENSLY since YOU putted this 'topic' ON !!!

 

Geert


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#9 hairwing

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:00 PM

Geert
 
If I understand you correctly,  you like  a fly tied with "some meat on the bone", one with some bulk, a fly that will give a fish a mouthful ? I'm with you buddy. The fly I tied above was just an example to see if I had the right picture in my mind of the original Roosters Regret. I don't normally tie and fish flies like it. I'm just trying to dig into some history and understand the theory of the fly designs.
 
 Do you fish the streamer in Europe ? Feel free to post a pic of your favorite and comment on why you like the way the fly is tied.
 
Here is an example of a feather wing I tie, it's not skimmpy on material......
 
hw
 
009_zps8047c376.jpg


#10 geraldsherbrook

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Posted Yesterday, 10:49 AM

Dear HAIRWING,

 

hahahaha I don't want YOU push me in a direction !!! wink wink wink !!!

 

Thanks to hear YOU feel something for a bit 'beef' toooooo...ah for me it is a  'mix' of experiences...

 

flymphs and wingless wets with that 'turn' more of hackle...psttttttttt don't think that STEWART his 'spiders' where sooooooooooo sparse 'some' want to letted bring over to 'us' via articles and books...NO !!!

 

my 'experiences' as a STILLWATER trout fisherman...(I did some years in the 80 ties flyfishing competitions on the English reservoirs (to compare with some of the big 'lakes' or loughs or lochs in the UK  (England/Wales/Scotland and the Irelands)...things we discovered with fishing of those flies...also gifted us regulary succes on a whole lot of rivers yes rivers...

 

a 'mix' between 'BUMBLE' like flies to fish the 'waves' (top of the water)...the 'GOSLING' type or 'DABBLER' typ flies...mayflies and sedges/caddis...ALL a 'NICE MOUTH FULL' for TROUT...

a 'mix' between still floating and sinking....

 

I wonder if some of the flyfisherman STILL have seen allready TROUT chasing their food / insects...or seen them busy ...be on the feed eagerly...and sometimes in 'all directions'...(splitting the water in a V)...psttttttttt I have seen several times coming 'trout' after a fly from more then a yard away...(be it a dry fly or a drowned/pulled wet fly or submerged fly)

 

pstttttttttttttttttttt one thing perhaps for me personally...I want most of the times a fly with a bit of SOFT fluff in 'her'...even I tie her FULL and PLAIN......................

 

My two cents...ah ah ah FLY FISHING ...and FISHING WETS aswell DRY FLIES...is soooooooooooooooooo WIDE OPEN !!!

 

psttttttttttt I don't bringing over here a 'evangile/Christus preech'...(yes I fish dry flies of all sorts...yes I fish nymphs  of all sorts ...yes I fish wet flies of all sorts)...I am NOT a purist but a flyfisherman who ties on a certain fly and certain cast (and sometimes another line) of wich he feels ...this can work !!! or will work !!!

 

I THINK AND BELIEVE STRONGLY (I am getting a bit more agressif now hahahahaha)...that also STILL WATER FLY FISHING had his influence in the EVOLUTION of FLYFISHING on the whole !!!...thus not only reservoir,lake,lough and loch...but also river fishing !!!

 

psttttttttt and I sincerly hope I have not to go 'deeper in to it' WINK !!!

 

GEERT

 

PS...still perhaps one 'tuch' for the Americans...I have great admiration for what POLLY ROSBOROUGH brought to 'us' with his CASUAL DRESS nymph (who WE later on and up to date 'twitched' progressifly this pattern)...pstttttt John therefore I appreciated also Your first fly YOU brought us here a week or so ago...this was indeed a fly with a MIX of 'something' the inventor had in mind !!!...

 

 

 


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#11 hairwing

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Posted Yesterday, 11:11 PM

Geert....I too am a fisherman of many methods...can not be labeled to one style. I love them all.

 

There is a special thrill though when the Brown becomes the predator that it is,  and follows the swimming fly leaving a visible wake....gets my adrenaline flowing ! Two predators..one on each side of the innocent imitation dueling it out......Aha.