21 replies to this topic

[BCBound]

Hey everyone,

Thought I'd start off the day following up on some good advice from Paul and post my first attempts at a classic salmon pattern in it's stages of developement. I will continue to update this thread with photos as I progress, trying to follow the advice given.

A bit of history about me. I have been tying flies for fishing, trout, salmon, and steelhead, for a little over two years now. I started tying classics about two weeks ago and have been getting a lot of help and encouragement from Charles and Dale. I have tied two Red Rovers so far, and following advice from Charles this third one should be much better.

So here's the beginning. I'll try not to complete too many elements of the fly before moving on, so that if changes need to be made, I don't have to undo a lot of work. This is my first photo upload and the quality is a bit poor as I took it with my phone. Hopefully it's done correctly.

The hook is an AJ 2/0. I seem to have trouble tapering the bodies, the taper in this photo is as good a job as I have done so far. I use a white two strand danville floss, maybe I need something a little beefier? I'm still trying to get an eye for the tail. In this case I traced the outline of the hook onto some paper and layed the crest down on it to get the size.

Any comments, critiques, technique sugestions or the like are greatly appreciated.

Thanks for looking,

Scott.

Attached Files

•  Tip Tag and Butt.JPG   1.36MB   163 downloads

[Nice One]

Hi BC. I think your tail is too long and too high. 1/3 shorter, I think a better fit.
If you look closely at the body you will see that it is far from smoth. I had stripped it and started over again.
Be sure that the thread is flat when you wrap it on.

I also see that you tied your gut on the underside of the hook.
Personally I think it is better to tie gut along the side of the hook. If you do, you get a flat area to tie in the wing.
Just a thought.


Sven

[BSH]

Agree with Sven for the tail and the underbody. However as I remember the pattern it is ok to tie in the gut on the underside of the hook as the wing consist of not too many elements. I'd tie in the gut in the sides when the fly is of ranger style wing, when many stems of the feathers are to be tied in and you certainly need flat platform to accomodate all of them.

[lukas]

Great first response is also giving me guidance

[BCBound]

Sven,

Thanks. I'll strip it back and make the adjustments. I probably shouldn't have started at all given the shape I had the body in, I'm kicking myself for going ahead knowing there was a problem. A lesson learned in patience there.

I've glued the gut down on this fly, so perhaps on my next fly I will tie the gut in on the side and see how that works. Your explanation makes sense to me.

Cheers,

Scott.

[dgotz]

Very good work thusfar !!

I agree with Paul. Showing your work in stages as it proceeds makes sense. Also agree with Sven. The tail is too long, too high. A few suggestions/opinions/observations..........

- use your fingernail to square your first wrap of the tip tinsel so that it is perpendicular to the shank

- don't worry about tapered bodied at this point. Focus on obtaining a smooth underbody with no bumps or waves. Use your best source of magnification to ensure it's there before you even tie in the floss

- I'm of the school that believes that the gut should be applied to the bottom of the shank. I believe that all tail components should be tied in with plenty of length (not snipped off to be covered by the butt). This ensures durability and since they are almost always tied on top of the shank...the extra bulk balances the gut below. BUT...then again...I have seen Sven's marvelous work and there's no arguing with sucess


Tow the line Scott. Great respect

dave

[Charlie Vestal]

Scott,

Definitely a better start than the 1st one you emailed to me. Great comments from the previous posters.

I'd agree with the too long tail and a lumpy and bumpy underbody. I think you did a much better job on the butt on this one.

I personally always attach my gut to the bottom of the hook shank. There is nothing wrong with attaching to the side if you look at the great flies that Sven has posted (Mike Radencich also attaches his gut to the side of the hook shank as do others on this forum). I have to fall back to my "but I've always done it this way" argument on attaching the gut. That's the way I was taught to do it.

Charlie

[geraldsherbrook]

Dear SCOTT,

From far away I 'highlightning' Your andrenline and the fact YOU 'launch' us here Your WORK !

I am soooooooo happy to see that the 'FRIENDS and MENTORS' came in with some magnificent pointers and tips !

but but but I will tell YOU (I SEE ENOUGH ! to can say YOU are 'good' !...as it's not evident to come to THIS what YOU achieved and let 'us' vieuw !!!°

Simply CONTINUE SCOTT !

Geert

[mike townend]

hi scott
you r tail is a tad high. think gap that will give you height
mike

[Bud Guidry]

heres something to think about, when you build anything, you have to start with a good foundation if the project is to be done correctly, this underbody is much much to bumpy. it will cause problems when you wrap the silk over it. making your work look sloopy

work on building smoother underbodies before you put hours of work over it

[BCBound]

Thanks for the input everyone. I'll go over it again tonight and post another picture tomorrow. We'll see if I can get off this first step

[Dave Carne]

Tail significantly too long, gut - best to start out with it in the right position - on the sides makes winging easier (used to do it myself), but adds its own problems and is not 'classic'.

Underbody is much too bulky (especially given the wool you'll be putting on top), personally I hardly use them at all nowadays, though this is largely because I'm fully gutting and am using thick silk thread. If you ARE doing an underbody then you want to be adding the ribs into it to benefit from smoothness you've created.

Dx

[Dale A. Darling]

Hi Scott,

What a lot of good, useful comments. Use the ones that work for you.

I think two strands of Danville 4-strand floss - I'm assuming that's what you did - is too much material; very tough to make it smooth. Use one strand. As someone said. also use tailing material as part of the underbody - build all of the taper you'll make for tip/tag/tail with your tying thread and take your time with it. Build the underbody after that. Always flatten the tread to keep things smooth.

This really is a good way to start. Looks to me like you have lots of patience, the first requirement to learn 0 or to teach - anything.

An added benefit will be received by many others who look in and are a bit timid of doing what you are doing. See it through!

I hope your wife and sons are well,

dd

[BCBound]

So I went home last night and after getting the kids to bed I set to stripping the hook back to the gut. Again, I had applied some head cement to the guy after tying it down, so I didn't strip the hook bare.

I wrapped the body again, and I'm happier with the over all job. I'd still like to get more of a taper, and I can't tell if it's just a visual thing or not, but it seems there might be a dip in the middle? I still have to wind the thread back to the butt section so this might help in making the taper more pronounced.

Next I shortened the tail, but now when I look at it I'm not sure if the tip and tag are too short? It was a long day at work so I decided to leave it as is and post it for comments rather then mess about with it.

Dale - I didn't read your last post until just this morning. The Danville floss is a 2 strand, but I used both of them. Next time I'll split it and see how that works.

Wife and kids are great thanks. All though the kids are kind of bonkers, but that's just the way we like them. Wouldn't want anything different from a 3 and 1 year old.

As before, all comments and critiques are welcomed.

Cheers,

Scott.

Attached Files

•  Tip Tag and Butt 2.JPG   2.34MB   55 downloads

[BCBound]

Up to date, here is the lateste photo. I took it all the way back to the tag again, and repositioned the butt from the second attempt, and getting the body even smoother. It's amazing what patience can do for you

I'm work night shifts for the next few nights, so I wont be doing any more tying until Thursday or Friday at least. I've left the wool and ribbing exposed at the front tie in point in case that there is something in this step that needs redooing.

I can't decdie if the hackle is too long or not.

Attached Files

•  Body and Hackle.JPG   2.68MB   41 downloads

[BCBound]

Sorry for the delay in carrying on here, I have been working nights and have had little time to spend tying. I did managed to tie and untie the underbody, tip, tag, tail and butt a few times until I was happy with it. I did the same with the wool body, hackle, collar and underwing.

I've been receiving good criticism and direction from Dale and Charlie on this, hopefully these photos do their instruction justice.

It has certainly been a good learning process in many respects. Being able to read over someones advice while looking at the fly and going back over it until I've applied their direction has helped solidify understanding a lot of the techniques involved in tying classic patterns.

I won't be doing much in the way tying over the next few days as we are hosting my wifes family for Fathhers Day. But I might be able to find some time to construct a wing or two

Attached Files

•  Colar.JPG   1.42MB   48 downloads
•  Underwing.JPG   1.66MB   45 downloads

[BCBound]

So here is the completed fly. The mentoring has been great and I hope more new tiers get on board with it. A lot of corespondence between Dale, Charlie and myself regarding proportion and technique. Something that I have done that might help others as well, was to go through all of their emails, and compile a "Coles Notes" of their advice. Something I can have bench side when starting to tie the next fly.

There is still a lot to work to be done and the next fly is going to show that off. As for this one, tail not quite set far enough forward, a result of to short a tag section. There is an obvious gap between some of the hackle wraps and the ribs, and the hackle should have been started one wrap further back. Charlie is working on that last one with me, I tied in above the second rib but ended up wrapping right froward to the thrid rib. Scratching my head on this one. I had to set the wing a couple of, and in the end it looks to have cause some problems with the far wing.

Anyhow, I'll include a photo of what my very first Red Rover looked like, and the better one will be my first attempt after some mentoring.

Hope everyone has a good Fathers Day tomorrow,

Scott.

Attached Files

•  Red Rover First Classic Salmon Fly-001.JPG   602.27K   76 downloads
•  Red Rover 2.JPG   1.8MB   82 downloads

[lukas]

well done sir i think you have done well considring your newness to this you have very good mentors and some great great tyers chipping there bits in heading in the right direction
regards John

[Bud Guidry]

not bad for a beginning but theres issues, the body has way to much bulk, throats abit long, i won't get into the finer details but understand that these "issues" are all common elements a beginner must learn to do right. we have all been thru these stages of learning. it takes time and practice to tune applications. your on the right road , you just need flies, determination and detication behind you.

keep up the good work and with time you'll reap the rewards

[BCBound]

Thanks guys. I look at the end result and I'm happy, but at the same time I see exactly what you mean Bud. Hopefully I'll have another fly up in the next few weeks.

Happy Fathers Day everyone!