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Newbie with wing problems


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#1 Daxrkara

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 07:49 PM

Hey guys, I am a newcomer to this forum and glad to be here ! I have been inspired by these flies since I first started tying. I finally took the plunge last winter on classic feather wing wet flies. My approach to these so far has been keeping things simple as I'm just getting started and don't want to get too intricate too fast without getting the basics honed down. Ive stuck with smaller wets, and just recently started my first full dress (style) Salmon fly. I'm moderately happy with the fly up to where I'm stuck at....... yep you guessed it, Tying in the married wing. I'll predicate this by saying this is my first married wing on a fly. prior to this I've been using single slips of turkey, Mallard working on getting the feather positioning right so the wing sits correctly. After having destroyed many beautiful feathers I feel like I'm in a place where I've gotten (some) understanding of what I need to do to get the wings to sit proper. However, when tying in the married wing I am consistently having problems with the far wing collapsing, creasing etc. Im using a combination of Turkey, Pheasant, and Goose shoulder. I am also curious if there is a correlation to how much the wing should be in contact with the shank relative to the thickness of the wing. Lots of questions ! I apologize, I understand this is probably a topic  that comes up quite a bit, I would greatly appreciate any input, references etc. 

 

Thanks again 

 

        -Dax 



#2 jgogg

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 09:08 PM


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#3 jgogg

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 09:11 PM

There are a few variations on tying in married wings.  You will save yourself a lot of time by sitting with someone knowledgeable and watching them do it.  Then have them watch you do it.  

 

Say where you live to see who lives near you that can demonstrate.


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#4 jgogg

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Posted 20 September 2018 - 09:13 PM

Or, just take a vacation, travel to the upcoming Irish Fly Fair and there will be many that can show you!


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#5 jgogg

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Posted 21 September 2018 - 11:32 PM

http://www.irishflyfair.com/fly_dressers.html


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#6 ted patlen

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Posted 22 September 2018 - 04:19 PM

can you put a close up photo of the feathers you made you wing from and what part of the feathers you chose the fibers?  also a photo of the wing in place.

 

you are at the beginning of an adventure that really never ends, it just keeps on morphing..enjoy the ride



#7 Daxrkara

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 05:24 PM

Jim, the trip is very tempting and if I had the means I would be there ! Excellent video ! watched through several Times........ So I come home last night after a friends party many beers and whiskeys later, and decide to sit at the tying desk and just build some wings. Probably a terrible idea in all respects. However after I built my two sides, (and simplified them to about 3 slips a piece) I thought why not try and set them and............................ "You've got to be kidding me!" the wing set ! not 100 percent of what I'd like to see but enough to move forward on this fly. This is not the last of this struggle. There will be a part 2.........and 3 and probably many more, but I'm so happy to see this fly come together ! 

Ted, Thank you for offering up your help, it is much appreciated ! I will post a few pics of what I'm using, The goose looks questionable. I will also put up a progress shot of the fly. 

 

    Thank you both !



#8 jgogg

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 11:45 PM

If you intend to pursue this hobby, you may as well get to know our "feather pushers".  That would be John McLain (feathersmc.com), Aaron Ostoj (AOfeathers.com),  Doug Milsap (Featherfreak.com),  Paul Phillipone (flyone45 on eBay), Mike Chan (Mikchan on eBay).  These are US dealers.  

 

John is easy to chat with on the phone for questions about materials and what he may have available that is not listed on their web sites.   He also runs a "free Kori Bustard" program.  It's free, but he will ask you for a donation to the zoos that provide the feathers. 


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#9 Barkworth

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Posted 24 September 2018 - 06:03 AM

We also have Cookshill UK, Bransford Game UK and ClassicFlyTying.net in Europe. Everybody ships to the US.

Rv-

  www.ClassicFlyTying.net

the reference guide for traditional salmon fly tying...


#10 Daxrkara

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 05:17 PM

Attached File  IMG_2226 (1).jpg   41.35K   71 downloadsAttached File  IMG_2231.jpg   35.95K   96 downloadsAttached File  IMG_2230.jpg   40.22K   88 downloads So as requested I have a few pics of the feathers I'm using plus the fly up to where I'm stuck. I know that I mentioned before that I got the wing to set "pretty good" I just couldn't get over some things I looked at last night so ....... back to the drawing board. I plan on tackling it this evening. Please feel free to mention ANYTHING you might see that could be making my life hard with the tie in. Thank you guys as well for the materials resources , I will need them !

 

-Dax 



#11 ted patlen

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Posted 26 September 2018 - 01:08 AM

  The goose is fine.  You removed the bottom fibers that are long and skinny (great for fishing flies brushed out!)

 

The closer you get to the tip the fibers get shorter (obvious) but also heavier.  

 

Turkey , all have the same qualities.   

 

From the fly shown you have made a heavily dressed body.  If that is what you want then perfect.  However if you use the same thinking on the wing you just may be overdressing the wing.

 

Have a photo of the wing you put together? 



#12 Daxrkara

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 05:04 PM

Well, It all finally came together !  Wings set up great and I pushed through to the end. First full dress Salmon fly ! I have Long way to go with these, and theres quite a bit I would change with this one, But its amazing to look at pictures for years and then to finally have one sitting at your vice ! Thank you guys for all the advice ! there will be more to come.Attached File  IMG_2233.jpg   49.75K   88 downloads  



#13 Torrishpale

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Posted 28 September 2018 - 11:34 AM

Well done.


Giles

#14 ted patlen

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Posted 30 September 2018 - 04:17 PM

Well, It all finally came together !  Wings set up great and I pushed through to the end. First full dress Salmon fly ! I have Long way to go with these, and theres quite a bit I would change with this one, But its amazing to look at pictures for years and then to finally have one sitting at your vice ! Thank you guys for all the advice ! there will be more to come.attachicon.gifIMG_2233.jpg  

Nice job for starting out...Do not loose this fly ,  it's something that you'll look back on.

 

Many wings also had inner wings that helped hold the outer sheaths in place.  All sorts of feathers were used as a foundation.  On your next try you may wish to try this.  

 

This wing set nicely with the turkey slips at the bottom of the wing even tho turkey can be flimsy and troublesome.   

 

Looking forward to see you're next try.   Do you own any books?



#15 jgogg

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 04:53 AM

One thing you might do now that the fly is complete.  Grab the wing firmly with the thumb and first finger of your right hand.  Then "hump" the wing by sweeping the back portion of the wing down with your left hand.  Thus putting some curve to the wing.  This it typically done before mounting the wings, but nothing stops you from doing this at any time.  If you look at images of other flies, you will see that they typically have some curve to them. 

 

This is a handy bit of technique.  For instance, you will often find that when you build a left and right wing, the angle formed at the wing tips are different between the two wings.  You can "hump" one or the other (or both) wings so that they have the same angle without completely remarrying a wing.


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#16 jgogg

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 04:59 AM

Another simple thing to watch for on returned, up eye hooks;  It is better to leave too much space between the head and the up eye than it is to crowd the eye.  But I think it looks best to leave just the slightest bit of level hook past the head.  The tendency everyone has it to crowd the eye, so maybe tie a few where you think you have left too much space.  You will get the hang of it.


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#17 Daxrkara

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 05:38 PM

Ted, thank you much, I will definitely take the under wing into consideration, my library on classic salmon flies is small to nonexistent aside from a small postcard book with about 20-30 pictures of the classics, I know I need to bolster this up in the future. Any Recommendations ? Jim, I totally agree on the Curvature of the wing and I actually attempted this once the wing was on but it just ended up sort of flattening it out the on the sides. I didn't really spend a whole lot of time with it as I was also very scared of screwing up the wings I finally got to set. I'm very thank full you mentioned the distance you like to stop at on upturned eye hooks I've seen both but I will stay farther away this go around ! Many thanks to you both for all the pointers I love hearing any bit of advice or critique. So I broke ground on my next fly a few days ago and it would appear round 2 has begun on my battle of the wings. On the up side, with going through so many wings I feel like I'm getting a lot stronger with building them so that could be a plus ! will keep you posted on my progress ! thanks again !

 

-Dax    



#18 ted patlen

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:03 PM

It's dated but still an excellent book for the classics..PryceTannant is the author.  He has straight forward instructions and the line drawings are very helpful.

 

Another good book about tying is Poul Jorgenson's on Salmon flies...between the both you can find loads of info.

 

Your style will emerge as you go along, play with the feathers and try different styles.  the look of a fly will change with subtle changes. An example , long fibered body hackle  creates a very different look than a short fibered tapered one. The length and angle of the jungle cock, etc.

 

Play and have fun.



#19 jgogg

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 03:18 AM

Books that were written "during the day" particularly on tying the flies are Blacker, Hale, Kelson, Pryce-Tannatt and Taverner.  They are all worth owning and reading carefully and thoroughly.  Pryce-Tannatt and Taverner can be acquired as originals for a nominal price.  The others should probably be acquired as reprints.  (At least initially). To find them, check abebooks.com.      Also eBay, Amazon and don't hesitate to ask here and on other web sites dedicated to the flies if anyone has duplicates in their own collection they will part with.  When you completely fall down this rabbit hole, there are numerous other books to read and enjoy. Both traditional and modern.

 

On the wing; with experience, not only will you probably not cause the wing to fall apart, but you will see that when you occasionally pull one apart tying it down, it can be remarried in place.  This usually happens to me when using barbs in the wing that don't marry very well in the first place.  Golden pheasant tail is notorious.


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#20 Robert Verkerk

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 04:46 AM

I would recommend to start with Taverner. He gives a broad perspective on the various styles, and even includes Crossfield. There are some tying instructions in there as well. When you're ready to move on to the fully dressed flies, Hale is your best bet. Blacker is nice to have, but just too confusing to own for any other purpose than collecting.

 

Rv-