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#21 QCflies

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 07:15 AM

I have been reading this all day, and has made for a very nice exercise and enjoyable insights. I really like what Charlie touched on in respect for the need or desire for more threads of the "how to" nature. The reference end of the Forum is extremely valuable to me at least. Haven't seen a step by step in quite a long time. Bolstering this aspect of the Forum could act as a better means to teach and provide insight and direction. Even a possible "Newbie" posted thread to help guide folks to some of the basics and provide a description of benefits of the Forum and receiving critiques on their work.

I know before I posted a fly I lingered for quite a long time, telling myself there's no way I'm putting up one of piece of you know what flies with these folks. Well much to my surprise it was pretty painless and I nearly instantly started getting help from people I would now call friends. I had been tying these flies for a couple of years by then and was more familiar with materials, techniques, ets than some may be so I wasn't overwhelmed by the process. That was me, and I know there are newcomers that may not have that background and getting a bit of a heads up on the place here may help them along even sooner and more comfortably.

OK, now I leave tomorrow and have enjoyed this thread a great deal because it really does get people thinking and in 5 weeks I expect it to be all warm and cuddly here.

Take care all,
Doug
Whichever way your pleasure tends, if you plant ice you're gonna' harvest wind

#22 Dave Carne

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 07:19 AM

QUOTE (GaspeSalmonBum @ Dec 13 2008, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It could be argued that this is not the best venue for critiquing flies. Even with rules and guidelines


GSB



That's fine if you have the luxury of local tyers - but I only know about a dozen Classic Tyers in the whole UK and I've never sat and tied with any of them, the closest is Paul Little 60 miles away and Davie about 100 miles away.

I would say that I think people who take offence at a hard but positive critique (you'll NEVER see me dismiss a fly out of hand - ESPECIALLY one by a newbie) are probably upset because they have failed to look critically at their own fly and so don't like it when others highlight faults they've failed to notice - this is of course the worst fault possible in a fly because a tyer who isn't the hardest criticiser of all of his own work is unlikely to make real progression... That said of course the better you get the more finely tuned to issues you become - I also aim to post every fly completed good or bad and I don't show perhaps one in fifty of those I tie, the bad ones are the ones you really learn from coz they're the ones that I for one most clearly recognise my failings in - the big one being my floss work which actually seems to be going down hill - wish I could work out why and how to fix it.

Further to Chuck's comment about commenting on the basis whether crests and tails meet etc - personally I'm very careful not to comment on areas that are within the realms of variation in traditional flies (and applaud the 'bravery' in accurately reproducing a slightly strange but correct feature - like for instance putting only 4 broad ribs on an early style Butcher), and have been known to pointedly disagree where others have mistakenly critiqued a fly on the basis of a feature being 'wrong' that is in fact 'correct' to period. When I first started posting I remember that someone said I'd put the 'wrong' number of ribs on a fly - we must all be careful to be certain of our facts when talking technical issues - again early on I myself made the mistake of commenting that putting on gut on the sides of the shank was the right way to do it (of course it IS the easiest way to get a nice wing platform though), but on checking I found out I was wrong and said so.

From the point of view of building knowledge, most of us have copies (or access via the net to copies) of the famous books - we all need to READ the Salmon Fly, Hale, Maxwell, Pryce Tannatt etc etc properly - I re-read them constantly (read most of Hale last night - for probably the 6th or 7th time), it's amazing how much you miss in skipping through a book coz you're really wanting to get to the patterns.

Couldn't resist another dip of the oar

Dave

#23 david g

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 10:39 AM

We are here for different reasons and learn in different ways. As this forum is unquestionably the BEST source of information and instruction of any site on the web...many find their way here. We don't have an established faculty with a consistent message, delivery or objective... and many adjunct professors are invited to participate. Like schools that have several teachers for the same class...we are afforded the opportunity to select the one that we think best suits our ambition and learning style...all it takes is a PM. But once we post our work....all students and professors are invited to chime in and sometimes we "I" get our feelings hurt or strongly disagree with an opinion, approach, or essence of the critique. Some of the artsy fartsy types (me) are emotionally charged, while others are true academicians with a strong connection to history, black and white issues, and working within an arena that is well defined and more easily assessed quantitatively. Some thrive with a more sugar coated critique, while others want Marine Corps boot camp. There is no universal method, and as a result (and more importantly) we refuse to teach to the middle.

I often tell my students (culinary arts) who are about to prepare an old classic like Poached Sole with a Beurre Blanc Sauce that they should refrain from changing the recipe "stifle yourselves" I say". I go on to explain that if you were a student of music and asked to perform George Gershwin's Rhapsody In Blue (an acknowledged classic) shouldn't you play it through at least one time before you decide to change it? If for no other reason than to find out why it is considered a classic (let alone all the new technique involved). In the same lecture I will state that if I were a serious student of music and found there was a note (food) I had not heard (tasted), I would go to any length to hear that note. At the FOUNDATIONAL level I am ruthlessly attached to the basics and my teaching method is anything but flexible or soft...but then again...they have all the right ingredients and equipment and NEED to have a return on thier tuition investment once they graduate. That's not the case with all those on the forum..however...there is a substantial cost in materials and time and I would say to all newbies that I believe that if you are searching...then SEARCH SERIOUSLY and don't waste the time of those who have worked so hard. Find youself a suitable mentor and tow the line...cuz if you don't...you'll be culled from serious, numbered consideration.

dg

#24 flyryan

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 11:40 AM

this is a brilliant response to a very important subject and i am glad that it is in the important topics so that it will not slip away at the bottom of the post page as others are added and so it will always be there for the newbie to use as a reference

post newbies post

and accept praise and critique equally as it will let you know whats right and whats wrong in your tying

Ryan Houston

 

to see the rest of the flies i have tied just visit  facebook page and browse my photos or galleries

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#25 Tuna

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 11:46 AM

Gentlemen;

As someone who is relatively new to the site, I would like to tell you why I joined. For many months before I started tying classic's I would open the site and look in awe at most of the flies posted. Although I have tied hairwings for 30 years, I always was fascinated at fully dressed featherwings. When I decided to take the plunge, after a month or two of getting the basic's down, I joined and started to post. I want and wanted honest critiques on all my flies because I wanted to truely get better. There was three critques of many that I would like to tell you about.
One member critiqued one of my flies this certain day and pointed out that the tinsel rib at the start of the body had hooked a part of the herl butt, and in his opinion that had ruined the look of the fly. Of course in my hast while tying' I never noticed this defect. When I look back at that fly,"it did ruin the whole fly". But I have never let that happen again. Thanks Ronn
Another member critqued a fly, he wasn't harsh, just pointed out some areas of the fly he may have done differently' in a suggestive way. After doing this, the same member was kind enough to sent me a PM hoping he did not hurt my feelings and asking if I wanted true critiques. I told I did, and that was the reason I joined the forum, so once again Thank you Matt for first caring about bruising my ego and being honest in critquing my flies.
The third critque was from a certain indiviual that stated a number of things about my ties, but after going thru the 88 pages on this forum, I have not seen one classic/artistic salmon fly posted by him. I feel crtiques from this indiviual was not making my tying any better. I will leave his name unknown.
So after telling you these little stories, what " I " like about this site is that I get pointers and honest constructive critques from most of the top tiers in this field. I would like to be good enough in the future to pass some of the knowledge that I have already gain from this site, to others that may join in the upcoming weeks, months and years. This is truely an exceptional forum for the pastime that we all love to do, with some remarkable tiers as well as some remarkable human beings as members. I will keep posting and will ask for honest critiques, and please keep them coming.
I feel honoured to be a member and to get the help whenever I post a fly.

Bob

#26 2604

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 12:57 PM

I thought I would post my comments on this topic being a newcomer to this site and new to Classic flies.

I was one of the people who stood back from the crowd and just admired all the fantastic flies created by all members. I had an interest in tying these flies but thought I could never reach the standards I had seen. Eventually one day I read a post from a newcomer wanting help. It was this and the comments left that made me join the forum. I realised that this forum wasnít just for the experienced tyer.

I was very apprehensive of posting my first attempt on the forum but felt I couldnít improve if I didnít know where I was going wrong. I am so glad I did post because I have learned so much in a very short time with the help of members of the forum. Thank you.

I am still in the overwhelmed stage but I am slowly getting to grips with it. Its surprising how much there is to learn.

I suppose the main reason I try and post my attempts are to receive honest comments or critiques. Itís the only way to learn in my eyes. I'm all for it.

Thanks,

Alan




#27 GaspeSalmonBum

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 01:18 PM

If your a new tyer looking for advice and critique. You could seek advice from one of the members though private message.

Each member has their own style. Maybe choose the one who's flies and style of tying appeal most to you.

I'm sure any member would be more than glad to help. And most appreciative too.



To post a fly however, seeking input may not be the most effective approach.

Imagine going to a tying class with you as the only student with 20 tyers trying to teach you how to do things.

With all 20 tyers having their own opinion about how things should be done

At the end of the day it's probably not the most effective approach.

Using "private message" comes the closest to approximating a private lesson in person.

JMHO

GSB

#28 stonefly86

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 03:28 PM

Hi Guys As a newbie here I thought I would chime in. I posted my first fly about 2 weeks ago and ask WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK? I really wanted your opinions and I hoped for honest criticism both good and bad. I got both things that were good{ I hope} and things that needed work. There are so many little details that need to be correct with these flys that ,imho, the more eyes the better. Dave,Bud,John, Ronn and everybody else your opinions matter to me that why I ask for them"if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen" Please remain open and honest with your critiques Thanks everybody

Bo

#29 Dave Carne

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 03:45 PM

QUOTE (GaspeSalmonBum @ Dec 14 2008, 09:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If your a new tyer looking for advice and critique. You could seek advice from one of the members though private message.

Each member has their own style. Maybe choose the one who's flies and style of tying appeal most to you.

I'm sure any member would be more than glad to help. And most appreciative too.



To post a fly however, seeking input may not be the most effective approach.

Imagine going to a tying class with you as the only student with 20 tyers trying to teach you how to do things.

With all 20 tyers having their own opinion about how things should be done

At the end of the day it's probably not the most effective approach.

Using "private message" comes the closest to approximating a private lesson in person.

JMHO

GSB



Sorry GSB but I really disagree - I for one have benefitted enormously from picking up suggestions made to OTHER tyers on techniques to use to solve problems on this site - whilst I'm personally always happy to provide critiques by PM if people ask, I think it's suggestions can benefit numerous people when someone says 'how about doing X to sort your problem Y out'.

Dave

#30 Matt Inman

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:26 PM

I agree with Dave in that I have learned a great deal from the advice given to others. Please do not put all of the instruction in PM because others will not be able to learn from the advice and also there is no way to know if the advice given is sound in a pm though others may be able to help fill in the gaps given when posted on the forum.

I would only advise the pm route when the person has too thin a skin to receive public comment. I do not believe that anyone who is serious about getting better should believe their flies have ever reached a point where someone could not make a comment without hurting their feelings.
Don't be afraid to go out on a limb, that is where the fruit is located.

#31 geraldsherbrook

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 05:25 PM

Dear BUD,

Amazing topic...T H A N K S !

I do believe you give us a 'all' ...newbies and oldies ...an early CHRISTMAS PRESENT...

I hope that everyone 'understood' your statement...and the way THIS MAGNIFICENT FORUM must continue to go and develop...to furfill an immense joy & friendship 'under' the whole bunch...rather than 'fill in the gape with all words and things' who are frightning and blessing...

I am realy realy happy to be in...and so have wonderful privilege ...to learn OH so many things...on the first place (1) on the subject of classic and artistic salmon flytying and how to tie a decent salmon fly (euh yes I am confident that I will succeed with time and future...

and secondly (2)...to receive and hear and share the wonderful history 'around' the subject of it...TANNAT, HALE, KELSON, BLAKER, TOLFREY (sorry if I forgot a couple)...toghether with the influence of the 'not so long' gone bye 'masters as BOYD, YOUNGER, MARTINEZ...and not to forget the still living people of the past 25 years as Charlie, Marvin, Wayne...and a lot of others 'never' to forget !

third (3) the sources of materials to put that wonderful hooks in their role ...to create 'the flies'...feather information and how to get (John form Featherscom...Jens Pilgaard...Ken Sawada...Cookshill...and other sites and names given...tools...techniques...

As a newbie we must be Oh so thankful for having this formum to hand ...and in a sense also be proud (as you oldies where in the past) 'to be bitten by' tying classic and artistic salmon flies...

So with this topic and imput of BUD and the heartwarming respons of the others it did great to hear ...you are all for 110 % motivated to take care of us ...and take care of each other...FRIENDSHIP

geraldsherbrook
Voted Sexiest Fly Tyer for 2013

#32 PaulR

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 06:46 PM

First to Bob (Tuna)-Please keep in mind and because we do not know of whom you speak, and care not to anyway, many of us have spent many years tying classics just to arrive at the point that we are right now, whether it be continuing with the classics or tying the artistic/creative flies. All critiques should be taken at face value. Get what you feel is important to you right now, but don't ever forget all the critiques because at some point in the future you may understand what was meant by the part(s) of the critique that you and we often dismiss. Everyone here should pay close attention to Gotz"s comments. They ring true to all of us. The importance of understanding the classics and not just the patterns, is invaluable. I personally draw up the knowledge that I learned constantly. I can't remember a fly that I have ever tied that did not draw from that experience. My current path may not indicate that, but trust me it is there. When I was in art school some of my best critiques came from faculty who were not painters. I learned very fast that I must pay attention to everyone and listen carefully. Yes we all know that this is just a hobby and that we can take it as seriously as we want to. Not everyone takes it as seriously as some. So, to those of us who do critique, we must not take our critiques so seriously that we may be offended because a newbie doesn't acknowledge it. And to the newbies, do not be affraid to get involved in critiquing; it will only help you critique your own work better. You will make mistakes critiquing as in tying, but the two go hand in hand.
PaulR

#33 PaulR

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 07:10 PM

Bud!When all is said and done, well I guess this topic will never be done, what about making some sort of pinned topic for reference for everyone? PaulR

#34 arkle

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 07:39 PM

Wow, what a thread. It must be pinned & preferably in several sections so as to have the widest possible effect of what this forums for & how to get the best both from it & how to continue to improve it for all the members sakes.

By posting ones flies on here it's possible to get an idea of the intricacies & minute detail that can either make or break a fly. Fair enough not everyone's got access to decent photographic eqpt. or the knowledge of how to get the best from it BUT it's possible to see ( in most cases ) the results of details that may appear insignificant or even not visible when the fly is "in vice or hand". Things like tying in points, gaps, unevenness etc the list is endless. Surely THAT'S WHY WE'RE ALL HERE, to learn from others both by our own mistakes & how we can improve upon them; often by a choice of methods from different tyer's. Hence I would hope that if anyone used the p.m. method of asking for help it would only be on say a very limited number of occasions as EVERYONE needs to benefit from something that perhaps they may well have been unaware of.

Like all forums/clubs etc it's only as good as its members, consequently since it's inception it has grown to be the largest source of knowledge for many disciplines of tying. I have told several people about it & a high proportion of them have joined, I would hope that others are doing the same. I will continue to do so, as it IS the BEST resource, at least in the English speaking world (as far as I'm aware) for Classic & Atlantic tyers.

I'm a member of at least 6 other fly related forums, & try to post most days on at least 3 or 4 of them. I'm founder & life pres. of the local branch of The Fly Dressers Guild as well as being involved in many other fly related projects & activities. I expect many of you are at least the same. The highlight of my year is to meet tyer's I've had "interaction" with over the net and other things at the B.F.F.I. even if I can't be with them for any great length of time. I'd like to do more/ much more but my circs prevent it.

I'd like to thank Bud for raising this invaluable thread & everyone who's posted on it, I must admit I hadn't seen it until late Sunday afternoon so had lots of reading to catch up on before putting my bit in. Thanks again everyone.

John



#35 Ronn Lucas

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 09:25 PM

"....Each member has their own style. Maybe choose the one who's flies and style of tying appeal most to you. ....To post a fly however, seeking input may not be the most effective approach....Imagine going to a tying class with you as the only student with 20 tyers trying to teach you how to do things. With all 20 tyers having their own opinion about how things should be done. At the end of the day it's probably not the most effective approach. Using "private message" comes the closest to approximating a private lesson in person....."

I would take a different view of this. There are two distinctly different issues here. What is wrong and how to correct or prevent it. There is only one position, ribs are uneven/start or end at the wrong position/etc. There are several ways to correct or prevent this. The floss is lumpy/dull/badly tapered/etc. There are several ways to correct or prevent this. The proportions are wrong/wings too high/low/big/etc. There are various ways to correct or prevent this.

I maintain that one should learn the very basics from one or maybe two sources so not to confuse the tyer. This will shorten the learning curve. What needs to be done BEFORE trying to tie fully dressed flies is every tyer must be able to do floss glass smooth over an untapered body/tag. Leave tapering till later. To minimize bulk, make feathers do what is against their structure in many cases, get proportions right, do multi layer wings, long and short bodies with floss, get the head right and so on. After the basics are maybe not mastered but close, the tyer will be able to tackle fully dressed flies and get reasonably good ones in short order. Itís all about time. How much the tyer is willing to waste is the issue. I wasted several years back in the day. You canít go back and redo lost time.

Iíve had the conversation with other tyers about are we doing new tyers a favor by helping them avoid the mistakes or would it be better if they were forced to find solutions to problems themselves. I believe that solving problems makes us better tyers in the long run but it does consume time. On balance, I believe helping is the best route. When I am mentoring someone, there comes a time when I push them out of the nest so they will find their own style and methods. I am not doing it to be mean but when I see that they have pretty good foundations, that is the point I step back. I will always be there to help after that too but the relationship will be different in that they will build the house (tie the fly) with the tools I have given them. Maybe one or two of them could step in here and give their view on this. I should insert here that just as a carpenter or mechanic, they can do the job with the basic tools but they will continue to add more tools over time to better do certain aspects of the job at hand.

Happy Trails!
Ronn


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#36 DrTomas

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 09:50 PM

this is a topic that i find both interesting and frustrating.

i choose not to give much criticism on the board, for two reasons: first, i am not known to all the people on this forum despite my long tenure in the craft, so i am likely not taken as seriously as the more well-known and vocal tyers are.

second: my real life precludes me from spending much time at the bench, and so i have posted only 2 flies over the past year. i don't think one can really be taken seriously on this board if they do not post their own flies. i have stated that in previous threads.

when i do critique i am usually very direct and blunt; i like not to mince words, just get right to the point. gets me in trouble.

but my frustration is that i think there are people who post their flies (whether they are well-tied or not) not to really receive critiques and improve, but solely to get a pat on the back. while there is nothing wrong with that, it is hard to know who those individuals are, and an overly honest criticism could dash their ego.

the second group posts their flies to have them torn apart because they really do want to improve. those people, you could tell them their fly was an awful piece of dung, and they would take the criticism in stride and move forward.

in my opinion, it is about teaching. in order to teach, someone has to listen to the teacher. many who post their flies don't really want to listen, they just want to "be heard." these are the people that criticism is not appropriate for, but it is also most likely that this is the group that is not taking advice and continuing to make the same error over and over again. they are the hardest to teach.

for a couple of people i have offered pm's dissecting their fly both as a whole and bit by bit. i think someone truly interested in learning would like that format, as it picks apart the individual nuances of the fly as well as looks at the fly as an entire work. when i finally get around to posting one, this is the type of criticism i will want. pick it to pieces and let me know what really works and does not. that is how to get better.

my personal opinion is that the theory that "there are many ways to do the same thing well" in salmon fly tying is hogwash. there aren't. there are good ways to do things and bad way to do things. if you continue to fine tune the good ways you will get better. if you continue to fine tune the bad ways, then you will get very good at doing something wrong, that doesn't work. the teachers on this forum have years, often decades of experience doing this. if they suggest that perhaps there is a better way to do something, then there most likely is.

in closing, teachers are human beings too, and can take only so much negativity from students. after reaching their saturation point, the natural response is to limit what you say and really pull back on the help you truly could give to someone. i see that a lot on this board because of sensitive egos.

#37 Claudia Z

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 11:42 PM

answer and selfintruduction to this tropic, sort of walks hand in hand...
First of all i want to give my regards to Bud for starting this tropic. and second i want to give the rest of You guys in here a thougt to. You all been teching me all that i know so far, and for that im Very greatfull, and hungry for more.
iv been lurking around in the shallow waters for nearly 2 years reading most of the stuff in here. as my english is good only by guessing, some times i realy need to think hard. all of you guys post, answers and pictures, helpt me to build the foundation on the Great art and knowlege of classic salmon flies. so please keep posting youre thougts and critics as you guys been doing so far, some Gentlemen in here take good time of giving Great constructiv comments and lessons to newbees. this sight is By my meaning better than any book... Now thats just BRILLIANT!
Great Regards to All of you in here
Claudia

You dont need to read this unless you whant to know me as a person...

(Hi, my name is Claudia. my english is ruff so am i sometimes... and i like big wings. i would love to be treated as one of the guys even if im not... If i ever post a picture of my flies in here, i do that to get a honest appinion from You in public
i dont need a pat on the back unless I ask for it, as im good at polish my ego al by my self.
over exited yahoo.gif comments is for me Very hard to handle... as a person i might come across as selfcritic and up on a high horse, but thats not the case. im just in to the pride and honour thing. i havent yet dared putting a real classic hook in my vice and for me to even think of throwing my work in the deep sharkwaters ill make sure i can swim first. if im satesfied enough to even considder taking Youre time by posting my flie, please do take the time that it takes to give me constructiv advise on how i can aprove my tying skills... )
untill then.... thanks for now C

if you give me ten minuts of youre time , i will spend a lifetime to figure out what you realy mean by it.

#38 GaspeSalmonBum

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 01:42 AM

"Sorry GSB but I really disagree - I for one have benefitted enormously from picking up suggestions made to OTHER tyers on techniques to use to solve problems on this site - whilst I'm personally always happy to provide critiques by PM if people ask, I think it's suggestions can benefit numerous people when someone says 'how about doing X to sort your problem Y out'.

Dave"


I'm not saying there is no value in public critiques. All I'm saying is advice thats sought through private messaging emulates traditional teaching more closely.

And I'm 100% right on this and your 100% wrong LOL. Only kidding. Just wanted to prove a point

Forums are great for discussions like this. However, they are not great for everything.

GSB





#39 Redwings1

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 02:49 AM

Very interesting topic, and certainly not one that is restricted to the flies in this forum. I suppose that I am lucky, having been a double major in fine arts, that I am used to critquing but can certainly see how some could be taken aback. A few weeks ago I drove out to Somerset with Kevin Compton and we had this very discussion or a good hour or so. It seems that all too often there are 'critiques' offered on any forum that are in no way helpful to the tier and really just shining sun up their..... To me the forums serve a few purposes, such things as socializing and advancement in technique and level of tying can be a tricky balancing act. I for one am certainly happy when my flies come out well and others enjoy them, but it is the critiques done properly that drive me to continue to practice and learn. To me a proper critique indicates not only what is wrong but possible reasons for that issue and ways of correcting the issue on future attempts.
I will freely admit that I do not post often on this part of the forum and most of those posts on this particular part of the forum are of the 'great fly' type but only because I do not feel in any way qualified to offer advice here....that is not the case in some of the other sections. I do intend to get back to being more critical of flies elsewhere as I feel that I have shied away from that in recent months, and hope that those words are taken as intended...to help advance the level of tying and offer my assistance.
-Mike Schmidt of ANGLERSCHOICEFLIES.COM

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#40 ted patlen

ted patlen

    marstons mills, massachusetts....cape cod

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 04:29 AM

Incredible thread. Very much what I expect from this forum.

Is this forum for teaching, critiquing, exhibition, or a place where people with the same passion can interact how and whenever they wish?

Why do people log on? What are their reasons and expectations ?

Responding to this thread is difficult but since this forum is all about opinion all anyone can contribute are their views.

For myself, I've seen alot during almost 50 years of tying and fishing and when I believe assistance is asked for, and I think I can offer something positive, I'll try to pass on some of which I've learned.


ps

Stack's idea for a critique corner is an excellent one!